Snape's Eyes (Lumos 2006 Material)
by Dr Edmund Kerr This was a really popular talk, but I managed to miss the original presentation and the line was massive for the "encore" performance that they scheduled after the original was so popular... fortunately they had CDs of it at the table :) Anyway, this should be less cumbersome than the one I just did on mental illness in HP, because I'm not really trying to explain a point of my own on the material ... I just really enjoyed it. First, this guy was really thorough, I could not even begin to re-present the numbers he compiled and his percentage analysis of the textual occurrences of different words in connection with "how Snape uses his eyes... and what his eyes do" (which was his way of noting that in certain settings you see Snape using his eyes as part of his more whole facial disposition and in other places his eyes seem to "act on their own," as he put it) ... so I won't even try, and I'll rather focus on his main points. The main point of his talk is that there is a whole lot more going on in the text with Snape than a cursory glance picks up and that much of it has to do with occlumency. His base is the vocabulary and descriptions used in the occlumency lessons in book 5 (noticing when the eyes "narrow" and when they "glint" etc) and then scouring Snape's other textual presences for the same language. For instance, from the "inscrutable" look on Snape's face when Harry says "they have Snuffles in the place where it is kept" in Book 5 you can see that Snape is continually practicing occlumency against Umbridge. Likewise, in "Spinner's End" it seems pretty sure that he is guarding his mind against Bella, whose eyes he never meets with his ... remember that eye contact is important legilimency (and remember from what was said in the HBP conversation Harry overhears at the time of the party, "ahhhh ... Aunt Bellatrix has been teaching you occlumency"). Which also indicates other times Snape has been practicing legilimency on Harry, in fact from Harry's first presence at the school, when Snape looks directly into eyes from the staff table. Kerr also suspects that, while Snape has a genuine animosity for Harry, he is completely and loyally Dumbledore's man, and thus has a genuine concern for Harry's safety, and thus suspects Lupin as a possible bad influence for Harry because it seems (based in the same textual analysis) that Lupin is practicing occlumency against Snape (like when Snape catches Harry out of bed with the Marauder's map in POA and Lupin keeps his eyes on the map when talking to Snape). I still don't know what I think about the loyalty to DD making Snape using the AK curse "all right." I still think that the unforgivable curses are not merely defined by subjective disposition and that there is an objective quality that can taint the user and that DD would be concerned about this for Snape (I base some of this in the similar background between Rowling and Tolkien and the latter's instance of when Aragorn is healing Eowyn after she has killed the Witch King of Angmar, leader of the 9 Nazgul ... he says the shield arm, which was smashed by the witch-king's mace, is bad, but the main damage came through the sword arm, with which she killed him: it's a more medieval moral concept, but any interaction of the will with evil, even in fighting it, wounds the will). But Kern states pretty well and convincingly the argument I know others have used too, of the close connection in description between Harry forcing the green potion down DD's throat, loathing and hating himself as he does it, and Snape's loathing and revulsion as the green killing curse flies from his wand. I'm still not sure, but it's plausible ... even if it is objectively "not a good idea" for Snape to be using the AK, DD is only a Christ symbol in places, and (as he admits in book 5) not above making mistakes (noting that, being more clever than most, his mistakes, when he does make them, tend to be more drastic than those of others). (BTW, Pauli has noted before the similarity between DD in the cave and Christ in the garden saying "if it be thy will, let this cup pass from me, but not my will but thine be done" ... and there is a lot more possible Biblical imagery here. In my post on the 4 tasks and 4 cups in GOF I described the "4th Cup" explanation of the Eucharist, where the cup in the upper room was the 3rd cup of the traditional Jewish Seder meal and the 4th cup was taken on the Cross. Dumdledore would be drinking the upper room cup in the cave [this is a pretty loose theory though, lots of crossovers] and the 4th cup is on the tower, with that "rag-doll" image having cultural echoes of the words "and I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men to me." And of course, the Old Testament foreshadowing of this was Moses putting something up on a pole for the people to look on and be healed ... a bronze serpent. In this case Snape's green death-curse may become like the spear in the hands of the Roman who then makes the famous public profession of faith, "surely this man was the son of God," especially if it really is an AK curse but DD was already all but dead, just like it was not the spear that killed Christ, it was noted that He was already dead, but it still took some "institutional malice" for the soldier to thrust the spear to make sure He was dead.) In the end, Kern has a really nice closer. He thinks the reconciliation between Snape and Harry will be when Harry finally really looks into Snape's eyes. I had heard some people talking about this in the hall and, not having heard the talk myself at that point, thought it sounded kind of romantic or melodramatic. But if it involves a magical instance like a legilimency "look" I can see it happening and being gripping and really good (but I still agree with Granger that Fawkes will play a role too). Good talk. |
Comments on "Snape's Eyes (Lumos 2006 Material)"
Well, Merlin. The problem with Snape's loyalty versus Snape's casting an AK at Dumbledore is why I am besotted with the Stoppered Death theory.
I put another post about this on my LJ to explain how Stoppered Death smooths out the difficulties. It may need more work.
http://felicitys-mind.livejournal.com/2616.html
I'll be grateful to you both for feedback---good or bad.
Hello, Whitney.
I would argue that Snape has already looked deeply into Harry's eyes during their Occlumency lessons. Janet Batchler over on the HogPro boards thinks we saw why Harry's eyes were significant in HBP because having Lily's eyes seemed to be the key to extracting the real Horcrux memory from Horace Slughorn.
That doesn't mean there isn't more to come, but that's a pretty big pay-off for the number of times Harry's eyes have been mentioned and for Rowling's hints that Harry's having Lily's eyes would be important. Voldemort has already seen Harry's face up close (in the graveyard) and didn't even comment on Harry's eyes.
She has also said that Harry's glasses are the key to his vulnerability (or something like that), and we have seen that Harry is rubbish at Occlumency and we have been told that Voldemort is a master of Legilimency. So that could be coming up in book 7; in fact I'll be surprised if it doesn't.
PS
Love the thoughts on Snape's eyes. I hadn't noticed some of those things (like Lupin's avoiding Snape's eyes during the Marauder's Map scene).
I thought about looking for all the "glittering" references but was too lazy to see if anything interesting was there. Glad you provided the work I wasn't willing to do
Felicity, yeah - I like the stoppered death theory more too. I have to go back through some of what Pauli was saying (it's been a hectic week after coming back from Lumos), I think he mentioned the principle of Double effect and I think that sort of comes to bear on whether actively using an AK would have a bad (at least to some degree) impact on Snape as a person. There's a lot of different fan-art out their and some of it not too good, like some of the fan-fic ... but I did see a really great one at Lumos, but I was too muddle-headed to think then "I should find the name of the person who did this so I can look them up on line and see if I can find a j-peg of this for the site" ... in fact I didn't even snap a pick becuase I was nervous somebody would swoop down and I would find out it was attempted copy-right infirngement LOL ... but this pic was Snape and Malfoy facing the "camera" with a silhouette of weary DD slouched in the foreground left, balanced in the background right with a silhouette of Greyback with just the silhouette of bared teath and the eye glinting out of the silhouette. In the middle, closer to DD, is Snape, and Malfoy is closer to FG, and Malfoy is completely shocked/scared/white/shaking ... the most interesting depiction though was Snape doing the AK ... Angry, yes, but more than anything in anguish ... tired, worn out, struggling - in short, much like Rowling's desrciption of WT doing the same curse in the graveyard in GOF (or at least how the description struck me and the mental image it conjured) - "screeched the words to the night."
And, I am more than happy to provide said information ... although really it was Dr Kern and I am just passing it on, but more than happy to do so (I was really lucky to be able to attend Lumos so I want to make as much use of it as I can for everybody getting all the exciting stuff that was there)... and I 'll checking out your updated stuff on the stoppered death theory very soon (it's easy in all the "new ideas" and stuff to forget that that first potions lesson is referenced 7 times in HBP)
Jo, (I know this was on the other post but I am "lumping" in this commbox :) ) ... Decina and Vanderhooft mentioned several times that Rowling has refered to Voldy as a pscyhopath, which they explained as an older term for what is now called a sociopath. I guess my take on it would be that that is, literarily, half of what he is. I really liked you mentioning the "if his wand was taken away" because I hadn't heard that part before. Obvioulsy there is an immediate reference ... fi you don't take away his wand you're never going to get him in that situation and you'll be dead in about 10 seconds, if that. But I think there is a deeper significance to that part of her comment too. The wand is magical, it is a symbol, I think (or at least this is the best way that I can find to put what I think, when I can even clearly discern said thoughs LOL), of the mysterious pathway between the psychic and the spiritual. As I said in the post I did on wands and lightsabers, the wand is a specific symbol with power in it, and I think Voldy, in some schitzo ways, hates being tied to it ... he would rather do magic without the wand. Wandless magic is possible but it seems to me to run the possibility more of sorcery (which is why potions is such a "grey art" ... leass reliance on wands, AND you can see the "dark character" leanings against the wand/symbolic in Snape's afore-mentioned first potions lesson in Book 1 "no waving wands around and yelling incantations". I think the wand is maybe symbolism itself as (at least in this context of her obvious concern in connection with the works with what ails human beings on the psychic level and her comment on Voldy as psychopath) the pathway from the more physical realm of the psychiatric and the psychological to the more spiritual realm of morals etc.
In the recent thing last tuesday, if I remember correctly, she said that in book 7 there will be more development of the connection between the person and their wand ... I think it really interesting that in CS it is with the brother wand of his own, through the shared quality of tail feathers from the same phoenix - Fawkes - that Riddle does his mid-air fiery "renaming" ceremony/revelation(I'm not sure if this is in her mind or not, but that way Riddle writes "I am Lord Voldemort" ... you could also read it with an implied comma "I am, Lord Voldemort" as in "Yahweh [which means "I am" - from the burning bush and Moses]and Lord Voldemort - they're one and the same." Talk about invocational name magic sorcery ... I know that's a little bit over-the-top way to state it but I think it may be there in a subtle/latent way)
Whitney, ... I saved you for last because I wanted to do a little "hijacking" at the end and throw in a tidbit on PotC DMC, becuase I was just picking around again and came across your initial reaction and your comment on plot. Bur first, Harry's eyes. I think Snape has been looking into his eyes all along, but you are right in a sense that he hasn't seen everything that is there. He is partially blinded, I think, by the fact that when he practices occlumency by looking into Harry's eyes, what he sees when looking into Lily's eyes is Jame's personality. He too suffers from Harry's type of prejudice that is reflected in Rowling's use of the "third person limited omniscience" perspective for telling the stories. And maybe what he (Snape) will have to come to understand in the end is that what is really there to be seen in their offspring is that, in marriage, the charity of the woman was the path to the transformation of the brash jerk personality of the highschool swaggering (and unjustly antagonistic, even though Snape may have returned injustice in turn) braggard. In the end, yeah, I think both Harry and Snape will have a lot to learn in looking into each others' eyes and really reading each other's minds (I love how when Harry refers to legilimency as "mind-reading" Snape tells him he has "no subtlety" - and I think that what Rowling has in mind in this magic is not just "reading thoughts" but reading personality, including sources of pain and fears etc ... which is why it is ironic that Snape says this about Harry because he [Snape] himself is lacking sublety in his practice of legilimency on Harry because he often seems to read only those specific thoughst of animosity towards himself.
In fact, I really liked your comment because it made me think more about Snape's position after DD's death. I mean, his loyalty to "The good" has mainly been instantiated in his loyalty to DD, who is now dead. So Snape may be a little bit like a "man without a country" at this point. Not ever having been really "true" to Voldy (Kern uses the foe glass from book 4 as evidence, that Snape appears in Barty Jrs foeglass ... but of course by her own revealed logic this coudl make sense in the same way as itr "made sense" with him deterring Quirrel in book 1, an argument which Bella seems to buy in spinner's end, or at least she can't beat it) ... and maybe he still is true to DD but I think that it will be more difficult now without DD there in person, now that he is dead ... In other words, if Fawkes swoops in and proves to Harry that Snape was loyal to DD, it may not be proof only of stuff up through HBP ... it may be to prove even further loyalty on Snape's part in book 7, proven/tested on a much harder battleground of living it without DD being there in person to reassure him and focus him etc
Now, on PotC and plot. I can understand very much the feeling that their is not a real concrete and well-planned plot. I think that is in part due to the fact that this is the most "middle" middle movie I think I have ever seen. I mean, with 2 Towers, you knew going into it that Tolkien had all 3 volumes as one big story ... and that the book 2 Towers was even more "anticlimactic"/middle than the movie and that they swapped out some stuff from Return of the King beginning to at least give the movie some "closure"/climax feel (at least those of us who read books knew that ... I remember watching Fellowship in one theater with only 4 other people in it, an old couple and their son/daughter and (other)-in-law - they started talking on the cell phone and as they were walking out early during Boromir's death scene I heard the old guy saying it was a waste of time - "it's probably just going to keep going until they're all dead" and I thought "you lame old fart, if you didn't read the book, why did you bother paying 5 bucks even for a matinee? probably just because you heard everyone talking about it and couldn't stand not to be 'in the know' ... so shut up and leave already and let me watch the movie in peace")
If you look at the first PotC movie you have a nice stage-setting denoument for the plot early on when you have Will going to save the girl and then you have Jack and Gibbs in the bar on Tortuga, "I'm going after the Black Pearl - I know where it's going to be and I'm going to take it" - and you don't really have anything like that for this one ... "Aye, settin' sail without knowin' his own heading ... something's vexing Jack, and mark my words, what bodes ill for Jack Sparrow bodes ill for us all."
So basically my argument is that the movie is extremely a middle movie and its plot is more a section of the trilogy plot ... in other words, you could watch Black Pearl as a stand alone movie, but you can't watch this one in that way (without forknowledge of the first movie's contents ... especially that timeline the writers give during the credits on the Black Pearl DVD).
Now, that can be justly criticized ... I mean, you should have, even for an installment in a trilogy, a discenrable plot with an opening and closing within that particularly movie, at least one you can discern by the end. And there is the cruxt, for me ... this is a movie you have to almost watch backwards. The "stage-setting denoument" comes at the end, when you realize that the whole thing has been leading to Jack's death in facing said beastie on his feet. That's why I have watched it 5 times now (I usually halt around 3 for in-theater viewings ... well, the LOTR films may have hit 4 in the theater) ... you have to go back and rewatch it in light of the ending ... it's definitly a "PoMo" mode of story-teling but I think everything falls into line along the elements of that final scene with the beastie (including the compass always pointing towards Jack for Elizabeth ... which is to say that her and Will's romance story, their "marriage interrupted ... or fate intervened?" is clarified in the death scene of Jack and his ship ... there will be more on that coming up in the comments thread I have going with Sumara on the "Pirates and Potter Preveiw" post)
Anyway, that's my little defense of DMC ... but not all movies, or all kinds of movies, are for all people :)
"Glasses as key to vulnerability" I would take as prejudice ... we often speak of "viewing the world through a certain set of lenses"
just remembered that I wanted to throw that in
Really liked the analogy of Dumbledore being "lifted up" and Christ "drawing all men to himself." I thought of all the "men" on the tower, esp. Draco, Harry and Snape. Those 3 could probably engage in a 3-way "dual" (tre-al?) a la PotC sword fight scene. That would be an interesting post. Snape wants to control the 2 kiddies and keep them from slaughtering each other, Draco is fighting for his life and Harry is fighting for vengeance -- the passionate romantic.....
Whitney, Merlin has talked to me several times why authorial intent often takes a backseat in his analyses because of the natural instinctive feel for narrative symbols a screenwrite/director may possess. I understand his explanation and agree with him -- with some reservations. I.e., I think that symbolic literature is going to be "purer" from someone like Tolkien, Lewis or Rowling who I trust "know what they're doing". I don't know anything about Verbinski and I also don't like the lack of a body of written literature for PotC. I don't know if there is a post about this or not.
I've opened the "Pandora's box" of Pirates of the Caribbean so maybe he could explain this in a post sometime. The reason I opened it is because people like to read this stuff -- even John Granger remarked on it to a colleague at Lumos. So maybe my instincts count for something -- maybe Verbinski's instincts as well.
8^)
On the "new critic" cry against "comitting the fallacy of authorial intent" ... that is a hard one ... because the other end of the spectrum is this loss of individual identity, something kind of like the Borg collective hive in Star Trek (and for the record, I did not go anywhere near the Star Trek convention that was running concurrently with Lumos somehwere in Vegas ... didn't even know about it until I heard some Trekkie talking bout it in the airport on the way out LOL)
I think there is a lot there in PotC that is easy to miss (Sumara said she read some fan site where they devoted some obscene amount of discussion to establishing that the locket on the table in Tia Dalma's hut matches Jones' locket sitting on the organ as he plays it), and I actually think quite a bit of it intentional, but I also am a bit
If I had to try to sum up my position briefly (I feel like Indigo Montoya in Princess Bride ... "let me explain ... no, there is no time, let me sum up" ... although he may have intentioally put it backwards, I can't remember) I would say that reader-response appeals to me, but not to the level where the reader makes the meaning, or like you could have the work mean anything depending on (Ie like saying that everything in the expanding HP "fanon" is a legitimate reading/interpretation/use of the canon itself).
I think that the key is a shared tradition between author and reader. There is a specific meaning from the author objectively in the work, but parts of it may be embedded in subconcious layerings that flow from the broader image/theme tradition ... which the reader then picks up on.
Anyway, that is the best I can synopsize it right now
And that was actually intentional and not a dangling thought ... "But I am also a bit"
I've been having weird dreams and disorientations recently, and increasingly believing myslef to be a drill bit ... I wake up from said weird dreams feeling dizzy, like I have been spinning at a high rate of revolution, I find myself with the burning desire to punch my head through various pieces of metal and wood around me (and spend hours pondering the identity crisis of "what about concrete? could I be a masonry bit too? I just don't know") things like that
...I honestly can't remember what I was going to say there ... must not have been too important ... I hope :) Looks like the stream of my consciousness dried up there :)
Re: 2 comments ago, right. I would be irritated if constant "higher critic" skepticism was expressed at our readings of Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings with the tone of "How do you know she/he intended that?" This skepticism eventually leads to the incorrect logical conclusion that no story can really communicate any meaning at all even if there is one "embedded" within.
That is not true of any story. Depp's Sparrow has been compared to Bugs Bunny by some, and I would agrue that even the storyline of Loony Toons cartoons communicate some meaning. But the object of my skepticism is the depth of the symbolilc meaning in the films and can be represented by the question from the Matrix: "How deep does the rabbit hole go?"
the pathway from the more physical realm of the psychiatric and the psychological to the more spiritual realm of morals etc
I wanted to add an explanatory note on this that I said in response to Jo2's comment onver on the "Dark Lords and Dementors" post because Joselle Vanderhooft stopped by on that post a dropped a very good comment and I thought it was really cool that she commented, and in a response comment I mentioned that I had actually done more replying on the matter over here on this post and so I wanted to clarify this one thing I said in case she stopped by to read it.
When I say "physical" I am meaning both the chemical elements that can contribute to psychological conditions, as well as the "environmental" conditioning of "family issues" and all such things that can impact the psyche from without. So, within my admitted "bipartite" position, with the psyche/soul being an aspect of the spirit, by "physical" I mean all those things that might impact the psyche from the "without" (Ie, chemicals from the body as well as the impact of the actions of others) vs the "within" of the, what you might call, "moral center" of the free will. In this way of looking at things "personal habituation" where a persons own past free-will moral choices impact their present psychological disposition, such past choices are kind of "fence sitters," or rather they have aspects of both "within" and "without" ... in the past they may have been "within" the moral center of free-will but in the present they may operate "from without" that moral center ... like the alchoholic who has made actual free-will decisions in the past that have at least contributed to the present state of "addiction" but now he makes the free-will decision to get into rehab and such (like that priest I once heard said, "I'm not responsible for my addiction, but I am responsible for my recovery." There may have been a "responsibility" issue in the past, which as a Catholic is what the confessional is for, but in the present I am not responsible for experiencing this or that urge, but if it is at the neurotic level rather than psychotic, I am responsible for how I respond to that urge and whether I seek out professional help in making progress in getting better ... as a friend once said to me "you speak a hard truth: sometimes it is a lot scarier to get well than to stay 'un-well.'")
Anyway, just wanted to explain some of what I was thinking on those matters.
PotC Defense
Ok, on the matter of a "text" or "textual tradition" behind PotC, since it was raised here I will put up the answer, but I feel a bit like Snape's alter ego via Alec Rickman, Marvin the manically depressed robot in Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, "you're not going to like it" LOL
The screenwriter's dropped the text tradition right in my lap in their commentary on movie 1 and I failed, until tonight, to realize the full import of their statements for this question. The textual tradition is not one of pirates ... that comes in much later with Walt Disney writing whatever he wrote and then making the ride and then the studio deciding to do a movie on the ride and accepting these particular screen-writers' script, in which they had known it had to do with the ride and Disney's stuff and adapted that (IE the whole thing of pirates and that image tradition to the story they wrote)
First, as far as the Ted and Terry crowd are concerned "The Crimson Pirate" is NOT the text behind the Sparrow character. That was the studio's idea, but not what happened. Bruckheimer basically stated outright in that one interview Sumara gave a URL for that the studio was specifically looking for a "younger version of Burt Lancaster" and when they started getting the actual screen footage of Sparrow in character (Ie Depp's younger Kieth Richards instantiation of Ted and Terry's character on the page) the studio was like "what the ... ?!?!?". Verbinski loved it and Bruckheimer gave him leeway because (and I paraphrase) "I figure if a director isn't making the studio nervous he's not doing a good job of what he should be doing." The screenwriters also loved it, they say it was exactly the character they had on the page but like nothing they had envisioned. So in terms of the final product of the Sparrow character, there was a distinct thing of Ted and Terry, Verbinski and Depp winning out over the studio, whom Bruckheimer distinctly characterized as wanting "a younger Burt Lancaster" (lead in "The Crimson Pirate").
So, but I am saying there is a textual tradition behind these movies, so what is it? What did Ted and Terry drop inconspicuously in my lap? They make a point of emphasizing in a number of places that "this movie [movie 1] is a romance" - then at one point they drop their lit tradition knoweldge in on the connection between that romance genre and horror, stating that really the horror genre is the descendant of the romance genre via the gothic.
Textually this is Ted and Terry's text ...but it is built mostly on themes and images of the gothic tradition of Dracula (who, like Jones, entered his undead state over the love of a woman ... and is the precursor to the Barbosa pirates as the original "un-dead") as the descendant of the romance (which the movies are techincally in the category of) and the ancestor of horror.
The pirate textual tradition does enter in but at a much later stage (historically) and more as adaptation to the textual tradition that is the core of the movies. In fact their screen writing duties/contributions were divided pretty much along the romance/horror lines ... one of them was primarily responsible for the romance material in the first chunk of the movie and one was responsible for the cursed pirates material and then they worked on the inter-mingled material together.
(On the Semitic background, Dom had an interesting observation ... that he is pretty sure he has read somehwere that there is a connection between the number 13 and the gentiles, that it is like the "gentile number" ... and there you have the whole "unclean seafood" crew of the Dutchman, which haunts Jack now that his 13 year captaincy deal is over ... but I need to research the "gentile number" thing before I can state that very strongly)
As far as the kind of lack of satisfaction (sorry for the veiled reference to Richards via the Stones song ... "I just couldn't resist mate"), I still think that some of that may come from the feel of lack of resolution and ending on a "dark note" ... what I was saying about this being a middle movie kind of puts it as the "end of the second act" in terms of the plot of the trilogy as a whole. In the commentary during the island scene in movie 1 the screenwriters make a point of noting that this is the end of act 2 in traditional screen/stage-writing(they characterize the standard 3 act formula as "a fancy way of saying beginning, middle and end" ... which is narrative theory that goes all the way back to Aristotle's Poetics). The end of the second act, they note, is the place where things should be at their bleakest (a nice "that's what you call irony" to have the scene on a sunny island) - if the hope is to get the pearl back and have Will and Liz marry, the things look pretty bleak with Barbosa sailing of on the Pearl on his way to "we're not taking any chances, he's only half turner ... this time we spill it all!" with Will on the altar. If the second movie is the second act with regards to the plot of the trilogy, as I would argue, then it's going to be pretty bleak at the end of movie two ... both elements, Jack and the couple, need to seem at their bleakest ... it is still at the stage of "a marriage interrupted" (to quote Lord Cutler Becket ... with "fate not yet intervening")
This actually ties together with a little of what I noted about CS Lewis on the moon symbolism/imagery. Lewis liked Austen (as does Rowling) who worked in the social mores/romance realm (Ie how do the social conventions impact Elizabeth and Darcy finding each other and finding a real realtionship) and in the gothic in something like "Northanger Abbey." In fact Lewis opened his essay "Priestesses in the Church" with an epithet quoting Pride and Prejudice with one character (I believe the bookish Mary Bingham) stating how much better it would be if conversation were the main activity of balls instead of dancing, and the reply from whomever that, "yes, maybe, but it wouldn't be near so much like a ball."
Thanks for pointing me in this direction, Merlin. Great discussion. :)
Seeing as I'm only just about to start reading HP 2, I'll leave everyone's "eyes" to you lot, but I will have a bit of a ramble about POTC...
Firstly, I think all the talk about DMC having no plot, or an unclear plot, is just silly. Yes, it's a meandering plot that takes a little concentration. But hey, life is a meandering plot. I love the plot of DMC, I did the first time I saw it. But then, that kind fo plot where you really don't knwo the full story until the very end is my favourite kind. (or in other words, what Merlin said - a movie you have to watch several times and think about backwards - I still think it's extremely enjoyable the right way round and the first time, but you get more levels out of it when you know their direction). Some people don't like it, they think you shoudl always be able to know what's happening or where everyone's going. Fair enough, nobody has to like the same thing, but that doesn't mean it's *bad* or *wrong*.
The ending I especially loved. It surprised me and thrilled me. I was absolutely beside myself during the last few scenes with anticipation, and I just about jumped out of my seat with joy when Barbossa came into view down those stairs.
So yeah, I totally don't get what people are complaining about. But maybe that's just me.
As far as authorial intent and whether or not there are valid allegories etc...
Let's remember that films, plays, novels are *entertainment*. I don't say that in a light way, I believe entertainment is an extremely valuable commodity and very much worth pursuing (otherwise why would I be striving to make it my life's work). But the point is, when someone writes a novel or performs a play or creates a film - it's purpose is to go out into the ether nand find it's place in everyone else's eyes and ears. To dig a little bit into people's imaginations and be enjoyed, studied, challenged and expanded by the thought processes of the reader/audience. ANyone who creates an artwork knows that nobody will look at their artwork and see exactly the same thing they see themselves. Some people will see less than what the creator put in, some people will see more, some people will see something quite different altogether. That's the beauty of art, it allows us to use our imaginations and join in with the creator on an exploration of some idea or thought or image. Whatever you see in a particular work, whatever strikes you abotu it and means something to you, is valid and exciting. Whether anyone else sees the same thing is beside the point.
So, Pauli, in answer to you question... the rabbit hole goes as deep as your thoughts. However deep you'd like it to, or whatever depth you can follow to. :)
If artists were really concerned about their art being "interpreted" "wrongly", they woudl keep their art at home for themselves.
Whitney... Along those lines, saying that it's okay to find depth and imagery in Tolkein or Lewis, but not in a modern film, strikes me as rather high-brow. That's just saying that certain forms of art have more merit and skill than others, which isn't true. Tolkein himself, I think, shunned ideas of his works having allegorical meanings, and yet that never stopped anyone finding those meanings and findign great joy in the study of them.
Merlin's points about Pirates having rish textual traditions is great, so maybe that helps you too, but for me, I personally don't mind if a piece has a great "ancestry" or not, I love what I see for what I see. To me, a completely new story can be just as rich as an old one (mind you, pretty much all stories are influenced by old ones, somaybe what I mean is that *undefinable* ancestry is, to me, just as valid as a definite textual tradition.
The only difference, if you'[re talking classics like Tolkein vs new writers like Ted/Terry etc, is that film is visual rather than written, and a film has more than one author or creator. I don't think we're giving Ted/Terry/Gore/Johnny more "credit than they deserve", I think we're just exploring ideas and remarking on the cleverness of those who initiated those ideas.
Hmmm, I think I was going to say something else, but that'll do for now.
PotC
I think I was just going to say, in response to the things about Ted and Terry noting Bugs Bunny as an "antecedent" to Sparrow that they were mainly giving a more broadly accessible hook (one that would catch for a broader audience range) for the trickster archetype (which, as I talked about over on the actual Pirates post, Tolkien uses the Loki imagery for Melkor in places ... but in a popular level movie [or the commentary on it] if you use something like Loki you have to mention him on screen/in text, as in the Mask, and even then it just sort of does a "carrying" function and if you asked the average audience just going to to see the Mask on a Friday night, they would probably just say "um, some kind of whacky god that Ben Stein's character talks about ... and that is sort of the power behind the mask's effect on Carry"... in this type of movie commentary it's going to "connect" with the average audience better to use somebody like Bugs) as with whatever archetype Pepe Lepew might hook up with.
But, on how far down the rabbit hole goes, I think it goes as far as the on-screen/in-text referents go. With something like Bugs Bunny I would not be surprised at all to find that the writer did actually structure whole episodes on different actual Norse Loki tales, but also didn't take the whole thing that "seriously" and would probably say it was fun to do that and rewarding for him but he's not going to expect to anybody to write books on "the deeper meaning of Looney Tunes" and would be fine with the level of where it is - and for the same reason I think it is not that "detrinmental" as cartoons for kids, as long as you're not introducing seriously detrimental stuff (like saying "worshiping idols is cool" vs using maybe certain elements particular to the Baal version of the dying and rising god myth, as long as those particular elements aren't like directly contradicting a Christian way of thinking ... and I think Fred and George definitely present us with an actual good side of the trickster archetype in HP)
... in other words, I think the "textual echoe" is undeniably there in Bug's line "to be or not to be, that is the question" but that it is just a cute allusion that will make the parents laugh too, and not an attempt to make the kids contemplate existential despair as Hamlet is.
But when you get to something like PotC, there is definite on-screen referents of human romantic love and questions of "what interupts marriages," and what do we fear in the afterlife ("all your sins punished" etc by Jones to the sailor) and that sort of thing. I think in both cases (Bugs and Pirates) the textual stuff is usually there, usually these people have studied (Ted and Terry were bringing up Lord Byron, which is the same textual traditional that Lindsay Ludvigsen appeals to for Snape as gothic/Byronic hero) and the question of the depth of the rabbit hole is the question of the depth of the on-screen referents. Bugs is basically a fun rabbit who gets the best of a gun-blasting coot named Yosemite Sam etc. Will and Elizabeth are archetypes of the common man and woman, Becket is the robber baron, Bootstrap is the "absentee father" etc.
The sort of rollicking character of the movies, for me, is not the same thing as simply returning to the level of the cartoon, but really narrative's way of not just "sugar-coating" the pill of thinking about subjects such as this, but of representing the "roller-coaster" ride that really is what is going on a lot of times in life ... and at the same time is sort of a privacy enabling thing in literature/narrative because it allows you a "fun" public focus in a piece whose underlying themes might give you pause to "entertain" certain questions about your own personal life etc ... and this works on the level of the self as well - without the "rollick" or "fun," you might just run afoul of the reefs of second-guessing yourself and depression when considering these questions in the context of your personal life (of course you can take that too far and just get caught up in the rollick and use it as an escape, as is possible with all "entertainment," that one uses it as mere "amusement" as "anti-musing" or anti-thinking ... and there are definitely movies out there that deliberately aim at "mere amusement," but I think usually those films are fairly subversively trying to influence youth to un-thinkingly buy into a certain world view of decadence)
On the issue of "well thought out" stuff .. I have a genuine reservation about the language that lends more of a propensity to remain retiscent more often than not, and honestly out of realization that I am often equally guilty of the same things of which I would accuse. In particular, it is really difficult I think, for any of us born in this age, to avoid the hyper-rationalism born of the Enlightenment ... meaning myself as well (I mean, half of what I write on this site makes Kant's Gemran look like "see dick run" as far as convolutedness goes ... meaning my own convolutedness vs other people's clarity and brevity) - but I do tend to be wary of the emphasis on the language of "thought out" and "intentional" for those reasons ... but, like I said, I don't think the "Borg collective mentality" is an answer either.
So, I guess that's my take on the matter
PotC and Tactics
I would only add one other thought here (and I do realize that is is getting to be a very divergent combox thread for a post on Kerns' "Snape's Eyes" presentation)
And that is that there are other factors for consideration here, but for my own thinking I prefer to be as clear with myself about what categories the different factors fall into. The other factors I am thinking of here are "tactics," meaning tactics in regards to discussing the Christian themes in literature/art as a path for being listened to on how the themes of Christianity resonate for human beings in such art.
Granger has some material on this in his first book, The Hidden Keys to Harry Potter. He talks about going into a classroom of 4th or 5th graders first and finding a much wamrer reception for his material (tailored to their level of course) than he did when he afterwards went into a classroom full of 6th graders, who were decidedly more skeptical and jaded. The receptoin in the latter setting was more of "Harry Potter is about Christian stuff? ... yeah, whatever." (And I would suspect that the segment of fanfic writers showcased by the lady at Gaurdian would be of this line of retort, and at least some of them from a consciously, or at least intentional at some level, polemical motivation of trying to convince the possible "fence-sitter" that thinking the HP works have to do with traditional Christian themes is prudish bunk).
But in the area of trying to get an ear, or a foot in the door, with the listening/reading public in this arena, I think that, from a standpoint of tactics, your chances are better discussing Harry Potter than discussing PotC. I mean, I don't think you could get even the amount of traffic we get even in our small corner of the reading/thinking web here at Muggle Matters with a similar site on PotC. I think it is arguably the case that Sumara and I are in a much smaller minority on the matter than Pauli and I and Granger and Travis etc are on the Potter matter.
Tolkien and Text
The perception of movies as such in this respect is simply not at the same level as written texts are. It is a lot along the same lines as LOTR. The movies got respect in this regard because of the texts by Tolkien, and the fact that what Granger does in showing the level of explicit connection between Rowling and the medeival source material (helped in no small part by such things as the author herself bringing up the 4-elements cosmology in an interview and directly linking it to the 4 houses), Tolkien himself did in his letters and in the fact that he was writing essays on the Beowulf poet and Gawain and the Green Knight.
While I would agree that there is a marked difference in tone between something like The Silmarillion or even LOTR and PotC, there are some among Pauli's and my circle of acquiantances who are making the same arguments for putting Tolkien/Lewis and Rowling in different classes as would be made here for putting Rowling and PotC in different classes
Personally I chalk such differences up to the difference between distinctly medeival and post-modern tones . One thing that must be kept in mind with Tolkien (and I think Lewis too, although he is not as well-known for it)is that he was almost conciously dedicated to pre-modern tone [cf the comment below on drama]. He had specific beefs with Shakespeare, and unless you are coming from that place he is coming from, as neither Rowling nor the PotC film-makers are, it is very difficult not to be a "post-Shakespearian" writer (I think Tolkien would admit some of the legit value in Shakespeare, but had specific beefs with not only the bard's uses of certain mythopoeic plot devices [on which issues I would agree with Tolkien, at least the specific ones he addressed] but on the issue of psychological drama, as noted below ... Harold Bloom of Yale University synopsizes the issue in saying that Shakespeare "invented the human person" as far as literature/drama goes ... Tolkien would agree with what Bloom is saying but not agree that that is a good thing [I had this by Bloom from an acquaintance who did his MA philosophy, including studying Greek, at the school at which I did my MA Theology and is now at Yale for and MFA in violin performance but is apparently able to keep up on his Greek by private or small group translation classes with Bloom ... I'm not a great fan just because he really panned the Potter series hard from what I heard, basically thinks they're fluff)
Returning to topic
In general, in today's audience, if a film is not of the official drama category it is difficult to get the audience at large to take it "seriously" in this way.
To put it in Sumara's language, in this particular context of the present audience at large in our culture, there are much fewer people who are up for following a deep rabbit hole on PotC than there are people who are up for following a deep rabbit hole on Harry Potter.
But I prefer to be clear, for myself at least, about the distinction between these tactical issues and the issue of what is in the work itself in-text or on-screen. When it comes to something like the Bugs Bunny reference and the trickster archetype, I strongly suspect that a choice like this arises from the fact that while Ted and Terry's writing does come from the more textually in depth, they too realize that if you start talking about these things to the majority audience, their eyes are going to glaze over, at best (In short ... "it ain't gonna play in Peoria!")
Psychological Realism
Now, finally, what I said above about the drama category relates to what I said about the "on-screen/in-text referents" in the works (and, just to be clear, I am not here saying anything like, "Rowling has an easier time of it simply because of an unjust prejudice toward drama" ... I'm just noting what is there in the works themselves). One of the "referents" that Harry Potter has, as per our discussion that was going on with Joselle and Kim, over on the post on their talk, that PotC does not have (and least to anywhere near the same visible level as HP), is the issue of real-world psychological malady, which lends to the "psychological realism" that I have talked about sometimes in regards to Rowling's work. I think that in the acting in PotC you do have instances of some psychological realism (such as in Kiera Knightley's acting in particular in the discussion with Will where he is bandaging her hand in movie 1, or the pained look at the "opportune moment" in the cave in movie one), but it is so interlaced with the "stylized" and "symbolist" acting (and Tolkien himself was more in favor of the symbolist and was noted for having a particular beef against modern drama, that it tends to take the psychological drama that used to happen properly between the audience and the stage, the Aristotelean "catharsis," and over-objectivize, placing it all on the stage in a way that strongly runs the risk of voyeurism ... I myslef am more middle of the road I guess, I do see the value in good modern drama acting but I also think there is a point to the caution and think that an undue bias in favor of psychological drama acting has arisen) that it is difficult for the PotCfilms to achieve the level of "psychological realism" that you have in something like the Lupin-Tonks interchange at the end of HBP.
merlin, I'm going to watch CotBP again today and look out for what you're talking about with stylised / symbolist acting vs psychological realism. I suspect I'm not going to agree with you about the *acting* as such, but rather I think that may be an aspect of the film's whole style.
In other news... I just finished Chamber of Secrets and loved it way more than I like Philosopher's Stone. Loved Dumbledore in this one - in PS I was hanging out from more from Dumbledore so I'm glad there was a bit more of him this time.
Anyway, enough hijacking. Sorry bout that, Whitney.
Sumara (but Whitney, read on ... I liked what you had to say and got to it a bit down ... you'll see where),
No more hijacking?!?!? But why is the high-jacking gone?!?!?!?
Yeah, it is one of the things I liked so much about PotC CotBP is that Depp is sort of bringing out the value of other types of acting than the sort of "serious psychological drama acting is the only sort of 'real' acting" bias that has developed ... the prevalence of the physical acting and the highly stylized (which, I agreed with the commentary that it was a really helpful "self-reference as humility" - actually I guess the humility thing is my idea, they mainly talked about it being good to address it, but a lot better to have it simply by way of asking the question ... not necessarily answering it.
It's not that the character of Sparrow is not a "real character" ... he is, but through the more kind of mix of different symbolism in a more stylized/symbolist acting (but in this context, the symbolist acting can't be viewed as "not human' because Depp has some great, really hilariously human facial acting going on)... the "psychological realist" acting is done more by Knightley (who is also a good physical actress) ... there is this kind of thing out there, it seems, that the only real serious adult acting is the heavy psychological realism, end everything else is "kids lit" (the same sort of "high road" criticism that gets applied to Harry Potter).
And speaking of "kids lit" I saw the movie "Monster House" this weekend and really liked it. It has seom similar images and phrasing as PotC DMC (going for the heart of the monster) and as HP (the issue of materialism slipping in through the actually not just "well-intentioned" act of a person, but their actually very empathetic love as a response to very really psychological factros/problems ... and coping with "closure" on the death of a loved one).
Age-wise I would say the movie is definitely early adolescnet ... the symbolism is more "on the sleeve" for a younger audience to get it (although I suspect that only an adult is going to get the "materialism/developed material attachement" aspect of it) but the plot twists and turns, even in the final sequence, are more than probably a younger kid is going to be able to stick with. There are good gags thoough to keep the younger kid who comes to see it involved, they're just not going to stay in touch with the plot as well as an adolescent. A couple really beautiful shots though (and pre-viewing reviews of the movie also emphasized how well done the motion capture is for an animated movie - very realistic and detailed movement in the cg characters) ... one scene in particular of two characters pretty much dancing and the one saying good bye as the other drifts off and vanishes. really good movie.
As for Chamber of Secrets ... ahhhh, I still envy you so much getting to know the characters for the first time ... especially Dumbledore ... "Great Man, Dumbledor."
Whitney, I loved the quote from Lewis because it is so true. By my calculations there are only 3 truly original events/ideas in all of history: Creation, Fall, and Redemptoin - and the only one that any of us purely human persons can take credit for is the negative one (which, as Felicity is wonderfully hitting on in the Felix Cupla, is the pathway to a higher reality, since redemption winds up at a much better place than simply re-establishing the pre-lapsarian order, just as the Incarnation is a new level of intimacy between the human and the divine beyond the Garden of Eden ... but that is all God's doing in the redemption phase ... all we can claim real "originality" in is the sin part)
On Tolkien, I don't think he necessarily hated allegory "as such," Ie in its natural place. But he did greatly dislike it taken to a level not proper to it, such as being the underlying structural/meaning backbone of a story. I have the page marked in the book of his letters but it is packed away right now, but in writing to somebody or other he said taht Tom Bombadil was pretty much striaght-up allegory for pre-lapsarian nature (I forget if it was him in that letter or somebody like Joseph Pearce [actually, now that I think about it, I think it was Pearce in a "debate" held at the school I did my MA at while I was there, that I recorded with a handheld tape recorder], that that is the reason Bombadil speaks always in rhyme, verse being a more basic human nature, without sin, way of communicating). Of course, it is precisely the fact that he is so defined by this allegorical relationship that he is unable to be the one to destroy the ring - the same reason he is not affected by it. And then he drops out of the story. I think Tolkien had a positive use for him as an allegory, but a limited one ... precisely because of being so tied to an allegorical (which I would think Tolkien might say is the only things, or at least one of the few, that you could have a proper use of a straight-up, 1-1, allegory for, because once you get beyond the "pre-lapsarian" into either the fall or redemption realms, you have too much complexity for 1-1 to work, you need thicker and richer symbolism to communicate the inter-relation of the different elements) .
But ... just one more tiny bit of highjacking (you can't expect a "rum-soaked pot what takes orders from pirates" just to go cold turkey, can you? LOL)
I was thinking bout this tonight... another echoe between the 2 PotC films is the "cultic" scenes. That stone chest up there like that is so like a high altar in CotBP, and Barbosa is first like a "fire and brimstone" preacher with the more than hearty (aye, bloodthirsty!) amens from the congregation of cursed pirates, and then begins the "ritual proper": "begotten by blood ... by blood undone."
And then in DMC you have that haunting ancient-epic ritual style incantation/poetry by Jones (with the whip cracking and the ritual of the wheel being turned):
"Let no joyfull sound be heard!
Let no man look to the sky with hope!
And let this day be cursed,
By we who ready to wake, the Kraken!"
Aaaahh, Okay, I see what you mean now about psychological realism etc, so I think I do agree with you after all. :) (I really should try to think of something I disagree with you about Merlin or you'll start getting big for your boots. ;-) )
I was objecting to the idea of Sparrow, Barbossa etc not being truly real, whole people... but you're not saying that. Good-o.
Oh I love Tom Bombadil. :) Fond memories of my dad reading to me the beautiful lyrical Tom-Bombadil poetry...
Anyway I've been reading some more about psychological realism etc etc... so I want to do a post on my blog about that in the next few days rather than continue this continuation of the previously concluded thread-hijack. :)
Sorry, more continuation... Merlin, do you mind if I quote you (some stuff from this thread) on my blog? (In a post about Psychological realism/acting/modern films...)(which hasn't been written yet)
Sumara,
Quote away :)
Ta. :) Don't hold your breath though. I keep changing my mind.
Hey Merlin - check this out for a bit of light entertainment - "Post-Traumatic Sea-Monster Syndrome":
http://jerrythefrogproductions.com/DeadMansChest.html
Really funny. :)