Riddles Part 4: The Spider
| Intro This post is continuation of my series on riddles, which consists of thedse posts: -Riddles Part 1: Riddles in Dark Chambers -Riddles Part 2: Riddles and Imagination -Riddles Part 3: a History of Riddles But it is also a continuation of the post on the 4 elements as present in 3 tasks of the Tri-Wizard Tournament in The Goblet of Fire, the center and interpretive key of the series and the predictive key to the forthcoming 7th book. Pitting the Elements in The Goblet of Fire In talking with a friend (our friend Nathan's wife J, talking with her after narrowly beating their oldest son in sudden death over time "win by 2 points" in ping pong, 25-23 in a game to 21 ... he'll beat me soon since I have pretty much topped out my pong game and he still has so much room to get better) and telling some of what I have been writing on here recently about the 4th book, I came upon a very good recap and further development of that post on the 4 elements in the 3 tasks. Harry wins the 1st task by pitting air against fire. In the 2nd task it is important that only Cedric (Hufflepuff/Earth - who, notice, is the one Harry saves from Krum's Imperius driven Cruciatus in the maze in task 3) gets more points than Harry, but even more important that Harry really wins the task (having arrived first to the hostages, while having done it with the greatest "handicap" at the start - having been awakened by a very excited house-elf only 10 minutes before the task begins) by overcoming water with earth (gillyweed being a plant and thus an earth element). But then, the 3rd task is simply the earth, the hedges of the maze. So, how does Harry beat that one? By answering a Riddle correctly, the Riddle of a Sphinx. The Middle of the Middle: The Spider and the Riddle So, what is the answer to this riddle found near the middle of the culminating task in the central book of the series? A Spider. (Did you like the incorporation of the middle clue in the riddle, the question whose answer is "D"? ) Keep in mind that another "chiastic tie" between books 2 and 6 is Aragog, the Acromantula: In book 2 we meet him, and in book 6 he dies. BUT also remember that Basilisks and Spiders are enemies (and in book 2 the former dies and in book 6 the latter dies) AND, importantly, remember what happens after Aragog's death: Sluggo, a potions master, gets some of the venom. I would say to look for this venom and whatever potion can be made from it to play a key part in book 7 and Voldy's downfall - in amongst all the other elements I have predicted LOL. Also note that Ron (Sulfur/Biological Soul) is an aracno-phobiac ... bad dreams and all. ASIDE: Keep in mind, even if I am right about every single one of my predictions and am able to pat myself on the back for the results of my advocacy of using arithmancy vs divination to predict such things, I will always have been eagerly awaiting book 7 just as much as anybody else NOT for the reason of being able to say "I told you so!" but for the sheer thrill of reading how she did it. The story itself, the actual flow of events she writes, will be as much of a thrilling revelation to me as to anyone else even if I am right about every single one of these elements. The story itself has a life of its own, and that is the most exciting thing. But I would say this element here could show a key to knowing the elements in what is to come. Find the central things in book 4, and in particular in the tasks (like the fact that air and fire are paired in task 1 and Water and Earth in task 2, just as Gryffindor and Ravenclaw have common rooms in towers and Slytherin's and Hufflepuff's are both below ground), and in particular the 3rd task, and then look out into the corresponding pairs of books (2-6 and 3-5) for these elements and what things surrounded their occurrence in the paired books. This might give clues to what will happen. Maybe even then go out to book 1 and see what is there and there might be some clues as to the corresponding "book-end" that will be book 7. Good Luck, and may the best wizard or witch win :) |
Comments on "Riddles Part 4: The Spider"
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Merlin said ... (February 01, 2006 12:38 AM)
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Merlin said ... (February 02, 2006 4:20 AM)
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jkr2 said ... (February 02, 2006 8:08 AM)
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jkr2 said ... (February 02, 2006 8:20 AM)
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Pauli said ... (February 02, 2006 9:35 AM)
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jkr2 said ... (February 02, 2006 3:50 PM)
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Pauli said ... (February 02, 2006 5:00 PM)
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Merlin said ... (February 08, 2006 10:19 AM)
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post a commentWOW! In looking up the "middle of the middle" part of the Sphynx's riddle I came upon some other fascinating stuff concerning Neville etc (thanks to my handy-dandy "quick-notes-quill" annotations in the margins from my readings of the book)
-In the trial Harry sees in the penseive, BARTY JR stands trial as one of the FOUR who tortured Neville's parents - it was not just the Lestranges(GOF, p. 595 ... maybe the Longbottoms did know something about Voldy's where-abouts and nature, something that will, with Neville's help, be revealed and play a role in book 7)
-With what I have been saying in some posts about Helga Hufflepuff's attention to those who are "orphaned" - noted in "The Sorting Hat's New Song" in book 5 - it is important that Harry notices, "He (Harry) often got sympathy from strangers for being an orphan, but as he listened to Neville's snores, he thought that Neville deserved it more" (GOF 607)
- I wonder about DD's "regrets" - if he feels like he stood by and did nothing when he should have done something, if he feels like his "wisdom" now may be a bit "duplicite" - I'm not saying would agree with him (in fact I will state that I would adamantly disagree) but I just wonder if Rowling is painting a picture of him as feeling such a "regret," since it is particularly in the context of Harry experiencing, via the Penseive, DD's memory of Barty Jr's trial that we read that, "There was an Albus Dulmbledore sitting on his right, watching Crouch's son being dragged away by the dementors - and there was an Albus Dumbledore on his left, looking right at him (Harry)." (GOF 596)
love this granger quote from the previous riddle posts.
the "Symbol" level symbol appeals to the faculties of Imagination and heart, whereas the allegory appeals to imagination combined with reason. Thus, in symbolist literature the imagination is a bridge to the heart,
so far as the predictions, i love it when it's looking for patterns and extending themes, but all the stuff just trying to guess what will happen frustrates me so much.
i don't know why.
it's interesting (to me, being self absorbed) according to this balanced X idea that after reading and enjoying books 1 - 5, (but not thinking much more about them)i was actually switched on in a big way to this series after reading book 6. i immediately saw the way it all extended back and enriched the previous books, the plot and characters.
i have a love/hate relationship with book 2.
i just can't wait for book 7 to put some more substance to the other books too.
i totally agree that book 4 is 'the crux' of it all.
were you disappointed with the sphinx'es riddle in the maze? at the time i read it thought it was a bit lame. but i guess it had to be realistic that he could solve it without hermione there with him....
did you read the stuff on sword of gryffindor and lashawn barber about harry's dream in book 1?
i wonder how that would tie in to themes being expounded in book 7.
sorry i've been back and forth to writing this and it's very disjointed. didn't even ask any real questions. will try and get back to it when real life settles here a bit.
cheers,
jo
Ok, it's late here but I just had long car drive and was listening to the tapes of book 4, which included about an hour sitting in a parking space waiting for Pauli and my sister, reading part of book 4 and making notes(I knew it was going to be that long of a wait, we were meeting halfway and I had to get there first and find a good place to eat and call them and let them know where to meet me etc... that kind of thing)
But, anyway, there are a ton of things from this (including a good main post) and I thought I would put 2 out here before I forget them (I really could use a penseive LOL)
1.Here's another prediction on the spider ... I think that the "spider" (whatever it turns out to be ... here's an interesting one, I think Whitney mentioned on her "rialb's blog" the question of Snape having an animagus form having to do with the fact that he lives at "Spinner's End" - Snape as a spider animagus) will be the one/thing to undo the Naginni HC by killing her.
2.
To answer your question about the Sphynx's Riddle - it is a sort of lower level riddle as riddles go, but keep in mind that Harry is a teenager AND is not as adept as Hermione at such exercizes.
BUT here is the thing that makes me like it - it is good within the context of the story and the meaning of the story.
-It mentions a key character, especially for book 4, but for the whole series as well, Snape - the spy (as well as Barty Jr the spy)
-It mentions a key theme to the story - that of healing ("the last thing to mend")
-It mentions a key sturcture of the series and particularly the centrality of book 4 to that structure ("the middle of the middle")
-It alludes to the Key Rowlingian theme of coping with death ("the last in the end")
-It alludes to Harry's rampant confusion in all of this ("When searching for a hard to find word" ... AND note that this is the first one that Harry really gets with that "Eureka!" moment, because he is doing it at the moment ... in other words the path of "figuring out" is correct with regards to the usual path of learning, the slow beginnings of working our way out of confusion ... a rather good lesson for a future teacher to learn eh? [that is, of course, on my theory that Harry will be the 7th and final DADA teacher :) ])
-It connects the issue of the spider with Harry's worst fear (ie, in reality the "creature" Harry would least like to kiss is one that is infamous for its deadly kiss - the dementor)
SO, as riddles in general go it's not an immensely clever one, but as far as the usage in the context of the work, it's downright ingenious.
well you have managed to change my mind about the riddle!
re harry as dada professor - that was a pet theory of mine for a while, but i believe i have read an interview with JKR (funny writing that every time...) where she puts that one in the bin.
re snape... hmmmm i think you'll have to choose between vampire and animagus don't you reckon? bit of overkill (hahaha) if he's all that.
cheers,
jo
i'm actually liking snape as spider and spinner's end etc as i just remembered ron's phobia for spiders.
jo
I always thought the riddle was kind of weird, mainly because immediately I thought of the dementors when the kiss was mentioned. Seemed to be anti-climactic for that reason.
Is this a connection: Quirrells's head being wrapped in a turban and a spider coiling up one of its prey in webbing? If our chiastic thinking holds true, Voldemort likes circles and coiling things. Snakes, the ring Horcrux, the yoyo, the turban.... Am I stretching? Any more thoughts?
Awww! You guys have a link to me in the sidebar! How sweet!
Not sure on some of them but mainly because brain is not fully on it yet ... but just remembered from hearing it in the tape series last night, in the graveyard ... Voldy's fingers are described as spiderlike.
On Harry not being final DADA teacher .. I officialy think it is one of her ruses :)
if these things come true (Snape as Vamp, Harry as final DADA) I fear I shall turn into such a Ron/Draco, "yeah, well, I told you it was coming didn't I? I mean she's not much of a poker-face for bluffing is she? I saw right through her, knew it the whole time, mate"
Not sure on Snape ... bats eat spider sometimes I thing, but I'm not sure, they may eat only
an animagus of a spider would be a nice ruse if somebody thought you were a vamp (throw them off your trail, that kind of thing) ... although it does not seem to be known, at least the students don't know it (for instance, when Hermione finds out Skeeter is not registered as an animagus, I don't remember if it has ever been clarified in the book whether the list is public knowledge, if not it might be that Hermione asked McGonnegal and she got back to her on it etc ... or for as good as my memory is some days the list may be in the library :) )
Personally, I think Snapoe was the spider in the maze - how's that for some wild speculations?!? :) ... it's a good thing I'm not writing the story, or people would say "some interesting stuff, but man, you're all over the map" LOL
And Jo, I owe you a further acknowledgement ... I was listeing last night and that forced bow in the graveyard must be something other than the Imperius curse, because verey shortly after Voldy tried to get Harry to say "no, I don't want you to do that again" and even he could not make Harry say that with the Imperius, Harry fought it like he did with Barty Jr and just as well
Oh yeah, and to Sarah and Pauli and anybody else who was reading the "who came out of Voldy's wand first" mystery we had a while ago - I actually heard the "chronologically" incorrect version last night, but I also think, now, that themeatically it makes more sense, sort of like Aristotle's "what is last in execution is first in intention" - he identifies with his father, but the deepest longing is for his mother.
Oh, and on my post on narrative defined on the side bar, I like how the lake kills Harry's watch and then he pitches it ... he completely ditches Chronos after a certain point in the story (GOF), I think with the third task he is completely entering into the Chairotic moment of the Cross (got a post coming on that)
ok, um, I just shook my head sideways and no other odd bits fell out so I think that must be it for this comment LOL
sorry for the typoes and thoughts left unfinished, I was just checking and noen of them were important or at least one got the general idea.
funny reading it though, I sound a bit like Ron when they got talk to Moody and Moody tells Hermione she should think about a career as an auror, "mind works the right way Granger" - and ron is energetically comeing up with and inserting all of this stuff because he wants Moody to tell him that he too would be a good auror LOL
lol at comparisons with ron~...
snape as spider oooh.. mmmmm loike it.
pauli - LOVE that thought about circles and coils. especially after a post here was talking about a difference between christian and non christian thought - circles and crosses.....
re the wand and priori incantantumoi ( :P or whatever ) i think she made a kind of freudian slip for exactly the reason you mention. he does long for his mother in a deep way, and artistically, emotionally whatever that is right. BUT of course for it all to fit together it had to be the other way, so it got changed. i read the later edition and actually felt a little sad that his mother's appearance got so little emotional focus. not just because i'm a mum of course.... but because you feel that so strongly from him in the books. and why molly weasley's hug in the hospital wing is so moving.
nothing coming out when i shake either, so i'll go and get some kids some breakfast!
jo
Yeah, the original contrast of the circle with the Cross is in Chesterton's Orthodoxy, the brilliant adaptation to the sword and the ring in Tolkien is Pauli's in that link on the side bar (Elendil's sword and Isildur's bane) - i was really excited when I read that one from Pauli, went off on it for a while along the lines of the sword and ring as competing schemes of revelation, which obviously relates to the stuff on here about arithmancy vs divination and prophecy.
Actually it's in The Everlasting Man which is one of my favorite books, but Orthodoxy is much easier to read first if you're not familiar with Chesterton's writing. The original post was something that I kind of stumbled on and can be read here - I came up with this before I knew what "chiasm" was. Brett promptly informed me of this word in which I identified the character "CHI", or "X", immediately.
This is one of the foundational philosophical ideas behind our blog; that's why we have permalinks this stuff over at the left. It's not so much that authors like Rowling wake up and say "Wonder how can I be chiastic today", although Merlin has, I think rightly, identified something of a conscious effort in the book themes. If a Christian authors a morality tale with Christian themes such as good vs. evil, sacrifice, courage, truth, etc. then his/her work will of a necessity contain elements of a chiastic nature (e.g., naughts vs. crosses) at the heart, not just "on the brain" as Merlin's one professor stated.
ahhhhh ... could not have put it better myself ... in fact I doubt I could have put it even that succinctly, in fact I am positive I could not have LOL ... that was probably the best summary statement I have heard of the matter.
for note on the pronunciation on that "ahhhh" in my last comment - it is heavily flavored by the voices Jim Dale does on the American recordings of the book ... I'm getting pretty addicted to his performance LOL ... in fact I am quite sure my house-mates may be a little worried at the loud emissions of Madame Maxime's " 'Agreed!" and "Dumb-e-ly-Door!" coming from the one shower when I am in there (we live in a rather lagre group boarding situation that is in a building that used to be a small convent, and has a bathroom with 3 shower stalls and 2 "loo" stalls)
my good friend (and my dh's good friend incidently, but i've known him longer lol) and i used to have lots of conversations about this regarding the old yawn "what makes *christian* music?" we have all played in bands together over the years (including 'whiskey priest').
it's a valid parallel to this kind of authorship i reckon.
the questions we'd roll around ad nauseum were eg
is it content?
is it intent?
is it the character of those performing?
is it the choices of the those performing?
is it the faith (expressed not 'level of' lol) of the those performing?
or of the writer?
and from there to "does it even matter?"
to
"what crosses the line and makes a song/performance inappropriate?"
we decided pretty much along the lines of you guys re the deliberate, the subconscious and the unconscious underpinnings of whatever you produce. if you are a christian that plays out unless you are deliberately heading the other way (for whatever reason).
ken would sometimes set out to write something totally banal (quite a relief when he succeeded, as his stuff was pretty intense most of the time...), but it always was grounded in the universe that was god's whether he did that deliberately or not.
i think the word *deliberate* appeared too many times back then. too tired to change it now. (it's just about midnight - i'm writing that so i can compare the time to when it's posted)
jo
And has anybody else noticed what I just noticed? the middle of the riddle is the letter "D." I have been writing a lot since this pot on th 4th book and the occurences of the numerology of 4 in the 4th book, as well as the whole series, in the "number 4 Privet Drive" series (well, I only have two
It's a wee bit speculaive of a point ... but in Hebrew, Greek and English (and therefore Latin), in all 4 languages (how did you like that one eh? LOL) what letter of the alphabet is the "D" letter? (In Hebrew it is the "daleth" and in Greek it is the "delta") ... the 4th letter.
"Ever think of a career as a conspiracy theorist and paranoid schitzo? Mind works the right way, kendall."
-Mad Eye Moody
LOL
That's really good! Notice that "D" is the 4th letter in "spider" also. There does seem to be a concerted reinforcement of the number "4" as the middle as in a set of seven within this riddle.
AHHHHH, the obsessive mania of it all gives me warm fuzzies all through my heart LOL
Sometimes I have to stop and play a movie scene inside my head, from the movie PI when Max's old friend/mentor tells him, "listen, if you're looking for 216 digit patterns in the world you'll find them everywhere because you want to ... 216 grains of sugar into your morning coffee 216 steps from your door to the curb ... and it will consume you!"
But yeah, she does like the number 4 and especially in this riddle and in this book, the idea of 4 tasks sort of flowing the 4 elements symbolism into her theme of death.
As far as some of the more, shall we say, haphazard times of my academic career thus far (like say my first 2 years of undergraduate before I discontinued and did the band thing), the letter "D" holds a fond place in my heart LOL Kind of like that one episode of the Cosby Show (got that for me da for Christmas, the first season on DVD and all)
oops, just went rolling on to the publish button without thinking ... the Cosby episode where Theo is ripping on Vanessa for constantly hinting at getting a dog and she replies "I just thought it would be nice to have a pet that's name begins with the letter that there are a bunch of on your report card."
Hey, but speaking of Arithmancy vs say divination ... I have been trying to see in the books what the difference might be between Divination and Astronomy, because they are separate subjects and the teacher of the latter is named Sinistra ... also, I am wondering who teaches arithmancy, or ancient runes